Event ID: 1422114
Event Started: 9/22/2009 11:00:00 PM
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Please standby for realtime caption text. 
>> Captioner:  I am dialed in, but do not hear audioon the phoneline, but am able to hear the audio in the webinar.  Please advise.  Thanks! 
>> Welcome to this webinar series, September 22, 2009 and my name is Christine, multi-method Communication including persons with intellectual disabilities in the decisionmaking process. 
>> So Pat, we may want to start over -- I am not sure if we were all on track. Maybe we should all start over? 
>> Sure, we can do that. Just hold on a second. 
>> Captioner:  Sure, I can try that Mac -- I can try that.  Thanks.  Be right back. 
>> Captioner is now dialed into the phoneline and getting the audio. Thank you. 
>> You may begin. 
>> Everything is fine now, Pat. 
>> Pat? 
>> Pat, you are all set to begin. The captioner is set up with the audio 3D  -- through the phone bridge. 
>> Yeah, he is working with the recorders. 
>> My name is Christine Kelly and I would like to welcome you here September 22nd 2009 for the presentation, multi-method Communication including intellectual disabilities in the decisionmaking process. How am a recent graduate from [ Indiscernible ] University -- and will come tonight and go ahead. 
>> Thank you, Christine. 
>> And thank you for your invitation to make this presentation. The title of my presentation is multi-method Communication including people with intellectual disabilities in the decisionmaking process and it makes the three connective arguments. First -- and second in order to accomplish this you must think how decisionmaking is done and how it might be opened up an third, incorporating this into these processes will have the effects of challenging ideas of dependence and independence if I was to illustrate this argument it would look similar to a popular icon with three rotating arrows one idea would reinforce the next to reinforce the next and it would continue to grow what I hope is and what the goal of this presentation is is that after this presentation you will be more confident in making this argument and that you are aware of at least one set of tools for an easing in and incorporating intellectual disabilities into your decision making. 
>> Before jumping into these arguments in the presentation I have found it useful to provide a road map apart from a clear map -- allowed those in the future to click through the information that they are seeking. And also to meet the audience at whatever level of familiarity that their ads and conclude with everyone on the same page. So the presentation starts with a general introduction which starts with an overarching argument that they must in the canned  they must in  -- they must engage in these practices and I ate review who I am which is particularly important in this online environment -- generally put, decisions can create and maintain or challenges systems of power and dependency I'd then involve this discussion and see about how decisions on how we conceptualize these affect people with differing [ Indiscernible ] and finally to add on a positive note I express the communication methods for incorporating people with intellectual disabilities into this she  -- into the decision making process. 
>> So the question that we start with is how did I come to speak on this topic? As Christine mentioned I gist concluded sociology at Carleton and I started to understand the importance placed on gender by adults with intellectual disabilities. Although I reach some interesting conclusions the end results spoke much more in empowering or a disempowering than it did to their gender. The final project also identified a number of changes that my participation would have liked to see take place, changes they notice they would hope to see for awhile and as in the slide in which Caleb, a resident in the Elkwood Heights care center said the other thing that I am concerned about is that the bus is getting old. And I know I told, I said to a coordinator here  the other day that it's very difficult and we are paying big bucks. I think what we should do is if I had my way is give us a nice big open house going and see what other people think. I don't care how we do its. It's important as far as I'm concerned because the last thing you need is someone going through the back whenever and then you have to fill out an incident report. However, because of the stress of confidentiality and on and, indeed, in my study I felt an able to communicate these concerns -- anonymity in my study I felt unable to communicate these concerns. If I had shared this quote with them they would have identified the individual, which was okay with him -- but would have gone against the commitment that I made to my participants when I began. Another thing that is "captured" and that I will mention again later is what surprised leaders of the final ride up of my research is the clarity and directness with which they express their views. They were caught off guard about the ability to quickly into each with their environment and we saw some insightful analysis of their lives. I said as soon as they got published they started to bring down my gain credibility. I also worked in the residential environment over two years and employment have led me to become increasingly interested in questions of liberty and independence in an environment that is close to the world. Also like to point out that this presentation is a work in progress and it sort of captures my thinking as the lead to a larger article focusing on what individuals with intellectual disabilities should be recognized and included as researchers and not just technical people. 
>> So this next section has a variety of purposes and one is to show how out uncomplicated decision making might be and how it is certain to create power. So I sort of all blind remodels of how people make decisions and I want -- outlined three models of how people make decisions and outline how the power structure is created. So this is the notion that you make because you feel in the. Of your stomach, a positive gut feeling. Intuitive decision makers choose the option on what their emotional reaction tells them. So what happens is these are often dismissed because of the emphasis on the motion. They should not overlook the and the images of the decisionmaking process. The reaction is immediate and the second advantage is that it takes into account what you really care about and finally it leads to direct action and you are more likely to carry through with something if you feel positive about it rather a few field negative about it. Some of which are that your emotions makeup of  -- may cloud other options and decisions may be influenced by Greenspan not whether or not you need that cookie but that is all you have been thinking about all week. And it can also be based on an accurate or irrelevant information. And finally, decisions need to be made collectively. If other people disagree with your choices it's hard to say that I feel strong about this and this requires a more analytical approach more than your gut feeling. This brings us to the idea of decision-making as calculation and experts recommend a more calculated approach so they have come up with six steps to rational decisions. Rather than list them, it's almost easier to again as in Star Trek. In January 2000 there was a cartoon in The New Yorker with a man seen to a woman, I have done the numbers and all I will marry you. So this also has advantages. It said the two avoided wider range -- to avoid [ Indiscernible ] goals and third, it puts the decision-making process out in the open and allowed it to be reviewed and other involved in the group decision process. These are often based on an unconscious learning processes that interfere with learning therefore we need a model of decision-making that is more natural than the calculation model per. 
>> So the this advantages of the calculation model would be -- the disadvantages of the calculation would be, what are demotions? Similarly, if you make the analytical decision and are not found  -- Bond a VAT might not follow through and it's hard to tell what is important and unan important. So we've sort of need an answer that produce these -- that bridges these two gaps and that is a decision as coherence. If and only if it coheres with the rest of all our recommendations. So you need to construct the interpretation that fits with the available information better than alternative interpretations. The best interpretation is one that provides the most coherent account considering all pieces of in permission that fit with each other and pieces of information that did not fit with each other. For example, when you meet unusual people you may consider different combinations of hypothesis that it together to make sense of their behavior. This idea of coherence is not achieved by a calculation for us to modify an unconscious process which can lead to a decision which makes one access people to others. So it balances the two other models. Which brings the question to, what affects this my decision have on the decision maker? So this is very intuitive, successful decisions lead to a box of power and in so been, it puts the decision maker into a position of power. Does a group decision making is greatly affected by power and balance and it can be there in power or disempowered and in visual -- empower or disempower an individual PE, however, when one is not consulted he/she is disempowered and some lead dependent on the decision-making process of others. We are turning to the recycling icon mentioned before, the more difficult it becomes to enter into a decision-making ability and the more that one is ignored, the less likely one is being intuitive in the future. So by devolving persons with intellectual disabilities into a decisionmaking position we are putting them into a power position. And as care providers simply in Keating in the edition making process -- simply in teaching in the decisionmaking, going to the bank and see how much do you want to deposit today and going to Sam Hortons, oh, what do you want to order pick the individuals should be passed first and foremost -- should be asked first and foremost. And it goes beyond consulting. They must find a way that recognizes the wide range of communication techniques as mentioned in the earlier slide, and the rule that facial communication might play -- the role that visual communication my place. 
>> This has a particularly relevant quote. As people from the disabled community are apt to point out, however, there are many other stories to be told about the civil people besides and the medical ones. Many of these people reject the suggestion that he did they or their relatives are living deplorable lives that would be better not have been brought into existence. With the the cause of their disabling condition is a genetic defect or not they do not think of their lives as such as being defective. Rather they view their lives as valuable because of what they're capable of doing just like everybody else. So I want to reflect a little bit more on how this intersects with disabilities springhouse does how we define disabilities defying individuals as the decisionmakers and we can look at the medical model and the social model. For those of you who are unfamiliar, this approach is the disability as a medical issue, a deficit, a pathological condition and is an individual burden and personal tragedy the individuals impairment is presented as the whole of his or her identity requiring both the condition and the person with the condition to be treated as we know it, measurement, quantification, and classification has not -- sorry, provided that service to obscure the humanity that medical scientists claim to serve. Their claims on the body have not tackled the [ Indiscernible ] systems that of others have seen. So the medical model removes the individual from the decisionmaking process and emphasizes the experts or the doctors. In contrast you see the Social Model common feeling them as an oppressed social group -- you see them as an oppressed the social group and this generated system of discrimination that backs disabled people were as impairment is be free to the functional limitation -- is referring to the functional limitation. Of the individual actor. So this is often seen as material and this focuses on physical barriers and the response to disability has been seeking to remove or disassembled these barriers. In the U.S. It has come to focus on oppression at large focused on societal attitudes that we produce the transmission and less on the physical factors. So the second on people with and without disabilities but argues that the nature and significance of these differences depend on the way that society proceeds and interprets them. So this is decisionmaking. It is argued that the social model prior traces over impairment and fails to recognize pain. So individuals disabilities often feel that the credibility of their pain or the reality of their impairment is overlooked. So on one side we have the medical model been knocked for to biologically perfect and on the other side is a social model that over looks the impairment that the social [ Indiscernible ] and seems to keep some individuals out of the classification. 
>> But because academics need something to do luckily there is always a third model. And that is what this represents. On this line DC-8 illustration of the definition of disability.  on this slide you see the illustration of the definition of disability. And this illustration is what some call the social relationship model and one that speaks to this. My commitment to this model is the result of working with adults with intellectual disabilities and the results of my research. So this shows a funnel with three balls inside. All three are bouncing around in the funnel all attempting to exit the  funnel taken alone or even to get through these three balls do not need to represent [ Indiscernible ] it's not until they pass through the funnel, the whole on the bottom when they pass through the various macro levels of society that they become a disability. So this model recognizes that there are different levels of functioning, my eyesight, for example might not be as strong as most of the audience. A reduced function that results in its social effects of reduced function and I was told to be a pilot I need 2020 fishing and I did not have it so I gave up vision,  -- 2020 vision and I was not the most skilled with basketball because I could not been because of my eyesight. And I was having troubles hitting the backboard. But I wear my glasses, these three balls are less of an issue and there is no macro level of society that comes in and says, oh, this is an accessible. So disability does not emerge until the restrictions with in the macro level of society or imposed on top of the social impacts that would imply for the individual. 
>> So if you wanted to summarize the image into sort of three points, disability is seen as a person environment mismatch or poor fit. Disability ochers because the individual does not have capacities with in the typical range and because the environment is not adapted to the whole range of human existence. Disability is situational or contextual. With its specific impairment is disabling or not depends on the situation in which the individual is interacting. The third is that visibility is relative. Social construction of its ability takes place both in relationship between the individual in the environment and in relations between individuals. So this model recognizes that some experiences of disability are short and also recognizes that the individual experiences of disability can be a  -- can be very different. 
>> So when we looked at the medical model of disability we saw disability been inflated with impairment and establishing disability with in that individual. So the medical approach wants to fix the individual. Contra early the social relational model are responses to the medical model. The difference between the social relation model and the social model lies in how the social relation model response to reduced function. This model recognizes reduced function as stiff green effects on the individual and the intersection will -- they may experience different impairment differently. Therefore the SR model  leaves the door open for medical science and also establishes the individual decision making. And arguably the social model recognizes that an individual with a disability is not more or less capable of making decisions than a medical p rofessor, professional and [ Indiscernible ] are not in control of this [ Indiscernible ] 
>> So going academic there for a while, we can take a step back and say, individuals with intellectual disabilities need to be included. Arguably they can be included in decisionmaking, and the question becomes, how do we include them? This is very much based on my own experiences working with by individuals with intellectual disabilities and a program called [ Indiscernible ]. So why am I recommending bejeweled methods and why am I interested in [ Indiscernible ]? Photo based methods offer benefits and it appears that the power mean and in teaching a fax that this technique might have influenced [ Indiscernible ] Research and the most popular type of photo methodology has been chosen by researchers and is [ Indiscernible ] and is known as [ Indiscernible ]. Quite simply, photo voice seeks to maximize participation and to the community and strengthen their communication pathways by emphasizing the visual aspects of communications. It allows researchers to address the often unequal power dynamics between the B.C. chirrs and participants and allows us to speak -- between the researchers and participant and allows us to speak in the decision-making. So how is it accomplished? Photo voice provides participants cameras and asks them to photograph aspects of their everyday life. Are in charge of the information that is used to make the decisions and this often results in the creation and promotion of knowledge about issues that one might not otherwise have access to the also part in control over the direction of the decision-making and are made to feel important. The photographs are discussed in an individual or group setting and the photos guide the session. So it might defer or. But it depends on the [ Indiscernible ] researcher so as Collier and Collier noted, the power of images invite people to take the lead in inquiry making full use of expertise. We are asking questions of the photographs and the informant became our assistance in this country and the answers to these questions in the realities of the photographs. We were exploring the photographs together. So you provide them a camera, ask them to take a picture of their life and have access to a world that he might not otherwise have access to. So caregivers also benefited from these methods. Often a care giver only sees one part of the individuals world, they might only see their home, work place or even the bus ride from the home to the workplace so caregivers [ Indiscernible ] can have a lack of access to that world and photo voice offers access to previously restricted places and allows control over what aspects are seen. So it gives care givers the opportunity -- and this says, perceiving the world from the viewpoint of the people who lead lives that are different from those traditionally a control of the means for imaging the world. Photo voice is a method that enables people to be fine for themselves and others including policymakers what is worth remembering and what needs to be changed. So if you remember, with the bus, it still ran and provided transportation and whether or not [ Indiscernible ] was not really something that had been considered. However, when they talk about what makes them feel safe and the bus comes into the picture. In addition to providing participants with the opportunity to contribute to decisionmaking this also allows the opportunity of in power been participants and or communities because it in curches social actions and allows the ability to go beyond consulting for his appearance and allows that the recipients will benefit from the research so [ Indiscernible ] will soon be sitting on the shelf in a library and will offer benefits [ Indiscernible ]. However, the methodology that encouraged their agency or empowerment [ Indiscernible ] producers and knowledge and allowed them to identify changes that they would like to see in their community and lobbying for these changes. What is unique to my situation is I was bound by confidentiality and it was up to my participant to offer these changes. Something that the [ Indiscernible ] to do. 
>> So having discussed photovoice as the methodology I want to briefly review what it was good for individuals with intellectual disabilities and why I was speaking and to read my own research I was most attractive to photovoice. And as the title of this presentation says, it's really because of the communication potential that it offers. From my own perspective, [ Indiscernible ] alongside people with intellectual disabilities [ Indiscernible ] and if there is research it's often found [ Indiscernible ]. So what we see is people with intellectual disabilities being of service, being watched as opposed to being a impeached or consulting -- engaged or consulting and when I look at this I would often find [ Indiscernible ] that would discuss about the [ Indiscernible ] discussion instead of with subjects or alongside for participants. That is not to see that these are any less valid or have not produced changes but photovoice is a technique that appears more common [ Indiscernible ] so as I mentioned before those that are consulted and the final product were quite surprised that the individuals shaping this research and the quotations [ Indiscernible ] and participants with intellectual disabilities and has been suggested [ Indiscernible ]. As I mentioned before, since this [ Indiscernible ] published it has gained credibility however, this is not a result of anything spectacular except recognizing that they had the ability to contribute, wanted to contribute and if the means were provided to contribute they would. And it cannot be stressed how useful and helpful these programs were in keeping my interview, at minimum it allows some people disappoint to hold onto and redirect their attention to [ Indiscernible ]. I know that I like to move my hands around and tap my foot and have in the photograph allows that outlet without making that visible and allows participants to direct the conversation could if they did not like the topic or with the discussion was going the could change photographs. And the photos all-out the discussion to begin with positive reinforcement.  allowed the discussion to begin with positive reinforcement in D.C., I am the one doing the positive reinforcement, I really like the colors that you chose in the picture that he  painted. As the discussion moved on the participants were encouraging each other and particularly unique was the last interview and they said, why are you asking questions? It's our turn to ask you questions and some the I was on the hot seat to answer questions to all of their inquiries. 
>> If we look at the next slide I also wanted to stress it was not just the [ Indiscernible ] photos but what developed was a relationship in which it focused on photography, the pictures that the participants were taking. Not only were they being recognized as adults and lifelong learners, they achieved unique relationships that might not have otherwise been created and have not been paid in in the of my other work with adults with intellectual disabilities so [ Indiscernible ] the idea that participants could be co researchers. It further empowered participants by offering them a take-home scale and one of the most important things is the study concluded with how my going to get my next [ Indiscernible ]? So having discussed this intellectual disabilities relationship, I just want to conclude with a question, well, yes, you may say this is great but does it really work? To prove how it works I want to review quickly the outcomes of my research. Participants identified as [ Indiscernible ] and just to say, well, it all sounds great but once the final project is complete it really does serve [ Indiscernible ] in the decisionmaking process. 
>> So this was really at the time one of only three studies that had been done on individuals with intellectual disabilities and did have a  [ indiscernible ] findings in the main discussions with those related to the home. There were three main things that came of my discussion from home, a connection to physical safety. The home is a safe space of security and safety. And doing the comparison that took place. So the photographs that were all taken were taken with in the individuals  mean residences and did not include family photos or  events. No pictures were taken outside of home in the yard or driveway. So the inclusion of the vehicle is important because transportation for all five of my participation were eight concerned and bonding over the -- were of a concern and bonding over the [ Indiscernible ] the relationships. 
>> So all participants noted feeling safe in their home and connected their sense of safety with safety procedures. So the referenced the procedures for a fire. All identified their bedroom as a private space with all except Caleb taking one or more photographs of his room and he noted that because of the lighting he would not Anchorage voters and decided it was dark -- would not encourage photos and decided it was dark [ Indiscernible ] and it was still Caleb's favorite room because of the furniture. It was a gift from the immediate family and all state the bedroom is a container of one's possessions and a photograph that showed a lot of stuff. And we have quote here from Caleb. I wanted proper schooling. But Of course, back then they were. , and they would not let certain people and I felt badly. I remember my father had to go up one time and all they told him was just bring pegs for everybody. And he looked at them and said, what are you saying? He said your just teaching page to people. And that is that what I wanted. I wanted to learn how to read and write properly put no, no, they wouldn't be Caleb was one of three people institutionalized [ Indiscernible ] environment. So this is a quote from Aiden, part of the difference here is that with my mom and dad I had more freedom. Like, you can eat any time with my mom and dad, you know. But here you always have to eat here at 530 or 6:00 and I don't always want to eat around four, 430, five. And after that we have prayer and that. And I don't really like that. I don't really like that. I dislike doing, after supper, just go into what ever I want to do, but have to wait until everybody is finished and clean it all. So when I asked them about the home environment, a number of responses were provided, the relationship between staff and residents was emphasized most with staff assistant for friends and colleagues instead of  employed staff. And it was noticed that homes are larger and Aiden [ Indiscernible ] frustration with having to wait on other individuals. Interestingly Caleb [ Indiscernible ] changes on the present environment from the home to a more formal care environment. He acted right strongly made to a plea to an elevator be installed into a harm home to allow the wheelchair user -- to a home to allow a wheelchair user and argued that he would simply move his room upstairs to the bedroom [ Indiscernible ] and he has difficulty with stairs as well. But the solution would allow the new residents to stay on the main floor of the home. I referenced this observation because of the associated individuals perspective and personality and it also seems to in this perspective, you sort of step back and go, well, he is making all of these decisions, is no one listening? It's really the fact that they have come out in a different means and they are presented through a different means. 
>> So to conclude, in terms of knowledge production I would argue that it was successful. More importantly, in reference to this presentation I think what we can see is an ability and empowerment and the encouragement of decision-making skills. So I wanted to conclude not with my thoughts but a quote from the first interview that I did. The very first recruitment interview that stuck with me through the whole project this serves as my motivation and was one of the participants that said, because I know as you were just saying, Chris, sometimes I do feel left out, because like, wait a minute kind of -- And you cannot get mad. I am aware of that. But it's very difficult sometimes. So that is my presentation and I hope that you got something from it. 
>> Thank you very much, Chris, that was very well done the floor is now open for questions and comments [ Indiscernible ] 
>> If I could start [ Indiscernible ] this is Christine Kelly speaking I do have one quick [ Indiscernible ] that came up, a solution [ Indiscernible ] levels her biggest concern was the disabilities movement [ Indiscernible ] decisionmaking in general because it was nonverbal and decisionmaking was not a huge part of her life and she was left out of her models. Is there any any way that they could adopt nonverbal or  vision impairment [ Indiscernible ] 
>> Yes, so it would work with visual impairment because of the emphasis on visual -- would not work with visual impairment because of the emphasis on visual. We have to focus on another [ Indiscernible ] and obviously if the [ Indiscernible ] is probably verbal -- I have not -- It was not an issue at the time so I have not thought about that. Your other question was? 
>> About people who are non purple or even maybe a critique on the emphasis on decisionmaking if they were to address any of those -- it's just sort of a school of thought from someone who has [ Indiscernible ] 
>> Okay. So my original attachments to these came from individual who was nonverbal but could sign but was unable to communicate because the home which he lived in the large organization did not have anybody who could sign and did that make that a priority. Because I had worked with him for two plus years we came up with our own sort of [ Indiscernible ] techniques. But he would get frustrated because nobody could understand him. And he would jump around and then others would walk in and see and he would be disciplined. It was a continuous cycle that did not make sense if they could just recognize and heard -- for lack of a better choice of words -- the whole situation has been changed. So whether or not this would work with an individual who is nonverbal, it would take a significant time commitment or it would have to be incorporated with sign language or another technique. I did not have those skills or the time limit to do it and access to individuals who were nonverbal and came from those [ Indiscernible ]. As far as decisionmaking I have not taken a position on it. I did it think it should be encouraged -- I just think it should be encouraged. Even if it's that we are post here and yes, you are asking me questions but I am ordering you. I think that could be  productive. 
>> Thank you, that may be part of that nonverbal or [ Indiscernible ] with [ Indiscernible ] and alternative methods. 
>> Tracy here and I agree. I think that there are many ways that people can make their preferences known even with people that were described -- I forget about the friend of yours or colleague who was talking about their daughter. And how one person feels in one environment over another. In one environment they are more agitated and in another environment they're more content that is another way to express their preferences and set of relying the people to be respected enough to know what their preferences should be. 
>> If you could read out the question from Colleen, it seems to me that there were considerable opportunity to develop empathetic for poor with the people that you worked with. Could you comment on the importance of empathy in your research and communication methods? 
>> I'm sorry I am on a Mac and pressed the wrong button. 
>> Responding to Tracy's questions one of the things that I noticed is if I had done the research in a work setting, if I had sort of done it or obtained for disappearance  -- participants through a gay program or something I might have taken last long because I have found in work environments the individuals were much more open, much more liberal and different things were encouraged and one individual, when doing a review of for I have learned, she said oh, is that we were talking about? We really don't talk about that here. And I thought oh, maybe individuals in the home setting was a naked did in a sense because it prevented individuals from opening up more because they were still constrained in that environment. As far as the importance of empathy, I think it was incredibly important because my individuals -- that the individuals that I was working with would not have trusted me otherwise and as I mentioned, we were two adults, it changed the relationship that we had. 
>> [ indiscernible ] you mentioned prior relationships with some of the for his appearance, how much was that prior relationship and friendship a part of the interaction? 
>> I actually did not have prior relationships with any of the individuals in my research. It was incredibly difficult, frustrating recruitment process but I found that the individuals that agreed to participate work very excited about the idea of being able to tell their story and those that did not participate, most of them were excited about the idea that they could show [ Indiscernible ] home to other people and because of the other constraints they were not able to participate. And I guess the other reason why people choose not to participate that caught me off-guard was the ATF that -- was the idea that what they could ticketed would be anonymous. They did not like that, why can people know who we are? Why can I not I really own this. It sort of lead to suspicion of me but what I had to do to get access to this Group support. 
>> Any other questions or comments? 
>> Chris, do you feel that the participants that you worked with gained more confidence and more independence because of what they experienced with you? 
>> I recognize that empowerment and confidence are [ Indiscernible ]. I know when I started the research it was very much in some cases sort of a substantial caregiver that worked in the home that felt that it was their role to encourage the disappearance to participate. And it was sort of something that was added to them. The second project something interesting happened, I called and nobody was home and left a message and called to see, can I pick up the camera? One of the workers there called back and said I'm sorry, we did not receive any of the cameras. We just have not gotten them yet. And I said well, it has been a month. I asked them [ Indiscernible ] were right there and the worker said oh, let me ask and see what happened. What happened was the participants had grabbed the cameras, taking them to work, done their pictures and no one in the home was aware of it. So I think their commitment and own initiative shows that they really did take to the project. And when we were done, it was really hard because I was leaving Ottawa, and let me up and meet in a group again. So of their connection to the cameras in the project would lead me to conclude that they did gain confidence in their abilities and the fact that they had something important to say. 
>> Chris, to you worry about -- I'd just had this thought disposable cameras [ Indiscernible ] as you move on in your career, they are a great method but I wonder about the technology may be [ Indiscernible ] and ways to transfer eight in two different technologies -- it into different technologies? 
>> I have two thoughts. First I used disposable cameras because I was scared that they would get lost and cost me more money. Afterwards no cameras were lost and a couple individuals have difficulty with the small [ Indiscernible ] and the winding motion of the thumb pity so if I had used digital cameras I would have found a particular type. They would not have been lost and the individuals could have taken as many pictures as he or she wanted. So it would have been advantageous to go digital especially with the lower in price point of digital cameras. And that led me to wonder how this be towards technology would affect individuals as a whole. One individual had a question of [ Indiscernible ], have a question of records but he would never have been iPod or be able to have the hands on of the media a discernible and the materials that he currently have. So I did increasingly wonder how the technology would affect the individuals moving forward. 
>> That is very interesting. I never thought about that. 
>> One last comment or question -- does anybody have one last comment or question? 
>> Okay. I would like to thank you very much, Chris for coming out and presenting the research to us [ Indiscernible ] great and [ Indiscernible ] webinar tonight and I would like to put an open invitation to join us in the last presentation [ Indiscernible ] and an opportunity to think about imagery and perceptive disabilities and that is next week September 29th at 7:00. 
>> Thank you very much everyone and goodnight. 
>> Tracy here, I wanted to thank the captioner very much for